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john truitt
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 12:48 am |
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What was the main driving reason for the American ATA to make 10 bores illegal to use in trap shooting? I believe they created this rule sometime in 1915 or there abouts. I just started thinking about this after reading Kevin McCormicks very nice article about a 10 bore B grade hammer that he did in the DGJ a few years back.
I know the two types of events are unrelated but it is interesting to me because some guys still shoot 10 bores at live bird matches.
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 02:07 am |
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| 10 bores were banned by many pigeon shooting clubs by 1900. Our club limited guns to 12 bore as early as 1889. As to contemporary pigeon shooting, I have never seen a 10 bore used at a competitive match. Certainly for vintage events, with the traditional limitation of 1 1/4 oz of shot there should be no reason not to allow 10 bore guns.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 03:09 am |
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| But the twelve bore is quite potent enough to allow the USA to take a gold medal in the olympics.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 01:10 pm |
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| I have never heard of anyone shooting a ten in modern flyer shoots. I just read an article in an eighties sporting publication (eighteen eighties) in which there was a heated debate about a fellow who was shooting a ten pound sixteen gauge in a twelve gauge event that was limited to a gun weight of something less than the weight of the sixteen. In that era, and again today, a heavy gun was, and now is again, thought to be a bit of an advantage in competitive shooting. There is nothing new under the sun. Short barrel light pigeon guns were the rage in Europe during a time when Americans were happily busting big money flying rats with 32" 8 1/2 pound Parkers and Purdeys. Early American flyer shoots had not only gauge limits after a certain time, but also limited guns by weight in some eras.
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 02:09 pm |
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| The 1889 weight limitation at Philadelphia was 7 1/2lbs. As the interchange of shooters among the New York and Philadelphia was considerable, one could assume Carteret, Riverton, Westminister, etc. had similar rules.
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 02:27 pm |
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There were some clubs that adopted an 8 pound - any bore rule in the late 1870's. I think Bogardus briefly discusses this relative to his favorite 10 ga - 1 ounce - 4 1/2 - 5 dram upland load.
I have a ten bore 7 pound 15 ounce Parker that certainly looks like a live bird gun. I showed it with the "light tens" at the PGCA Banquet a few years ago, and will show it with the hammer guns this year. It is 3291 if you would like to look it up.
Best, Austin
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 03:08 pm |
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| Austin brought up a good point. We have found pigeon guns in the Parker order books that were ordered at 7 pounds, 15 ounces, most obviously to meet the eight pound requirement of the day. The stock books are interesting in that, in some eras, they not only record the weight at which the gun was ordered, but the weight at which it was delivered. Some of the variations are a bit more than we expect from Parker Brothers. However, when the order specifies to the ounce, the delivered weight is usually very close.
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Drew Hause MD
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 03:31 pm |
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The "Baker Gun Quarterly", Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by the likes of Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounces), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounces), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounces), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounces), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounces). Capt. Money is normally listed shooting a Parker Bros. and Col. Courtney a Remington. W.R. Crosby did win the Target Championship of America with a Baker in 1899.
Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 03:31 pm by Drew Hause MD
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john truitt
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 04:45 pm |
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I think you guys are right and I am more referring to vintage type pigeon shoots. But the one pigeon shoot that I know of allows 10 bore but again limited to 1 1/4 oz 7 1/2 shot.
But was it the advancment of the 12 ga that caused the 10 bore to drop out of competition shoots or was it driven by some other force?
Last edited on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 04:47 pm by john truitt
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 05:50 pm |
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The combination of advanced development in powders, improved metallurgy in gun manufacturing, and slow but steady trends in standardization of chamber lengths in selected gun gauges all combined to drive the 10-bore out of the competition flyer ring.
A typical 10-bore load in the 1880's usually consisted of 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 drams of black powder, 1 1/4 to 1 5/8 oz. of shot, with multiple over-powder felt wads and a hard cardboard top or over-shot card. Other posters have described variances in the weight of 10 gauge guns of the era, but suffice it to say they were all heavy as built for the pigeon ring, at least in comparison to a 12- or 16-gauge field gun.
With the advent of nitro powders and the move towards longer chambers (2 5/8 - 2 3/4") from the usual 2 1/2", 12 gauge guns were developed that at least equalled the performance of 10-ga. black powder ballistics, and in most cases surpassed them in terms of shot volume, velocity, patterning and recoil. Needless to say, no sane or rational shooter contemplating a long day at the traps with a possible shootoff to take home the money would wield a heavy 10-bore when he could achieve identical or even better results with a fast-handling, close-patterning 12 gauge.
And of course the ammunition companies loved ANY new move towards specialty loads for individual shotgun shooting. Think of the appeal of the myriad of modern-day fishing lures, and you will get an idea of the dizzying array of cartridge loadings put forth by ammmo companies, When they began tailoring 12 gauge loads that duplicated or exceeded ballistic performance of the 10 gauge, the end of practical use came in sight.
By the time the first Grand American Trapshooting Handicap was held in 1893, the rules banned 10 bores altogether. Coincidentally enough, the actual bore limit was 11-gauge, and was so stated in the Carteret (NJ) and Hurlingham Club, England rules. But I imagine the frequency of encountering an 11-bore pigeon gun would be somewhat like discovering a Damascus-barreled .410.
By the turn of the century and the standardization of nitro powders , chamber lenghts, and the use of fluid steel ibarrels n sporting gun construction, the 12 ga. pulled way out ahead of the 10 in desireability, availability, and all-around use.
Thus ended the reign of the 10-bore in live bird competition.
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