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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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Gentlemen:
Can some of the more experienced claybird shooters enlighten me on the dimensions commonly encountered regarding straight-gripped skeet guns?
Specifically, why do they always seem to have straighter dimensions than a comparable pistol-gripped gun for skeet? I shoot pretty much standard dimensions, i.e. 14-14 1/2" LOP, 2 1/4-2 1/2" DAH.
I have looked at several Win 21 and Parker (when I can find one) factory skeet guns with straight grips, and they always seem to have 2" or less DAH, and I don't think I'll be able to shoot them well.
Is there some logic here that I am unaware if? Some function of the straight grip and wrist angle, or the like?
Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Al ZInn, Painesville, OH
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Albert E. Zinn
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E Robert Fabian
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 10:35 pm |
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I had a chance to shoot a 2" DAH straight grip 26" Parker skeet gun and it wasn't pretty, the owner can shoot a very nice round trap with it though .
Bob
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 12:25 am |
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Al.I just measured my factory straight grip 16ga.skeet gun and it is stocked 1 1/2"DAC and 2"DAH I shoot the gun well just floating the bird a little over the bead.
Dave....
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 01:52 am |
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Lots of straight grip Parkers I have seen are only 2" DAH, including all three of my straight grip guns. You just have to bring the gun up higher on your shoulder and keep your cheek against the stock and let the connection work for you. Don't creep up on the comb or else you will be even higher.
I don't know why this was done. A common DAH for straight grips seems to be 2" by my imperfect survey and a common DAH for PG guns is 2 1/2" .
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Bruce Day
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Kevin McCormack
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 02:25 am |
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| Best dimensioned gun I ever shot was a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 14 1/2 PG. Shot like a rifle, exactly where it looked; with your head and face where they should be, a target didn't have a chance! KBM
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 03:17 am |
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Bruce:
This is my point - if you pick up most PG guns meant for field or skeet, they will be around 2 1/2" DAH. I have a Mod 12 Skeet - it's a little straight at 2 1/4", and I have to remember to cheek it tightly. I have a Mod 21 PG Skeet at 2 1/2", which seems to be about perfect for me.
I realize you can learn to shoot about any dimension with practice, but there seems to be a decided intention to stock the straight grip guns with less drop - as your own findings bear out.
What is the logic behind this?
Let me ask the question another way:
If a person's stock dimensions are say 14" LOP and 2 1/2" DAH for a pistol grip gun, will he shoot to a different point of impact with the same dimensions in a straight grip gun?
I always assumed that I would want a straight grip gun to be the same dimensions as my PG guns, and I'm a bit frustrated because I can't seem to find one - they are all too straight.
Thanks,
AL ZInn
Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 03:18 am by Albert Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 06:19 am |
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| Albert, I don't know why it is that way, but both PG and St stock guns work for me equally well or equally poorly. However, if you find a nice straight stock gun at 2" you should be able to get the stock bent 1/2" without problem and with insignificant pitch change.
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Bruce Day
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Dan May
Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 11:00 am |
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It has everything to do with the angle of the toe line. On a straight grip, the toe end has to come up in order to make the appropriate straight line transition into the grip area. So in order to fit the same length buttplate/recoil pad the heel has to come up as well.
Best,
Dan
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scott kittredge
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 09:07 pm |
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| my new 12 ga VH skeet gun has 2 in drop. shoots trap nice can't hit much on skeet range. to hit birds at skeet ,they have to be about 12 to 14 inches above the barrel. i think i'am going to have it bent down to 2 3/8 th to 2 1/2 or so. scott Last edited on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 11:44 pm by scott kittredge
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 03:52 am |
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Dan, I respectfully disagree with your theory. If it could be done with the older Parker Bros. guns (see below) then it could be done with the later hammerless Parkers.
The example in the picture has at least 3" of drop.
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 03:59 am |
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I agree , Dean; the DHBP can accomodate 1/2 inch or more difference in the dimension of the end of the butt.
Best, Austin
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Dan May
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 04:26 am |
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The mystery continues!  Must have been a conscious decision to raise dimensions later on in production.
Best, Dan
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 01:17 pm |
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Gentlemen:
I thank you all for your observations. What I deduce from all of these comments is:
a. Straight grip skeet guns were consistently stocked straighter than PG guns for skeet.
b. There doesn't seem to be any rationale in this practice, based up grip differences, wrist angles, etc. between a SG and PG gun.
c. Those who have SG skeet guns stocked this way seem to have to shoot them with a sight picture as if they were trap guns - which is logical, but hardly desirable for a sport that was intended to simulate field shooting.
d. Finally, if I ever locate a nice SG Parker or W21 Skeet, it will have my normal dimensions or someone else can have it!
Regards,
Al Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 01:26 pm |
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| I think it has more to do with when it was made. My straight grip Parker lifter has 3 1/4" DAH. Perhaps it has something to do with the style of mounting a gun and the size and build of men changing that called for a change in stock dimensions. paul
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Russ Jackson
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 02:08 pm |
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I agree with Paul, more to do with when it was made, if you think of it the early guns were still "Game Getters",alot of folks depended on their guns to bring home dinner, and a gun with a little more drop was more of an all around shooter, the shooter of today is strictly a sport shooter , Folks way back when, looked at things differently than we do today, In February I had a very close friend pass away that was 104 yrs. old,when I would kid with him and ask him why he didnt buy a nice Parker or two for me years before I was even born, he would say ,we only had one gun and the whole family took turns using it, we hunted deer with it, rabbits squirrel,fox, everything ,you never bought more than what you needed! I might be way off base but its just my thoughts for what its worth.
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Dave Koehler
Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 02:19 pm |
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I'm far from an expert but I read somewere that stright grip guns which were mostly English and are made for overhead shooting as in driven birds. PG grips are for the American type of shooting over a gundog. That must have something to do with the DAH.
Dave Koehler
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 11:49 pm |
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Paul & Russ
Thanks for your thoughts, but I think we are talking about two different eras here.
As a generalization, most guns from the lifter era were stocked with much more drop than became usual in the 20th century, both PG and SG. Measuring of numerous Parkers (and other doubles) from that time confirms this.
Factory skeet double guns are mostly from the 1930's-40's, before pumps, autoloaders, and O/U's took over.
I'm trying to find out why the makers of double barrelled skeet guns would stock a gun with one set of dimensions if it was pistol-gripped, and a different set, if it was straight. The guys in this thread all confirm this with their guns, the builders obviously had a reason for doing so - but nobody knows exactly why.
Dave Koehler brings up an interesting point, but remember: these are SKEET guns - the makers knew what they were going to be used for.
Interesting discussion, but the mystery continues...
AL Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 12:07 am |
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Thats not my experience regarding the sight picture.
I have three straight grip guns, two are pigeon configuration and one is a light field gun, all 12ga. For all these guns, you place the target just on top of the bead if the target is a steady elevation. You don't have to shoot much below. Covering the target works for a rising bird.
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Bruce Day
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Dan May
Member
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 04:18 am |
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In looking back over my first post, I'm realizing I didn't fully explain my point (I think I was on my first cup of coffee!). 
My guess was that from a production standpoint it was more efficient to raise the heel of the stocks on the SG guns a half-inch in order to accommodate the standardized buttplates (assuming the toe line angle was made differently than the PG, of which I'm not sure, but it seems like it was).
I do believe the earlier hammer guns were pretty consistent in their DAH concerning PG vs. SG. Will have to investigate this further and map it out on some actual stocks. I'm most likely all wet! It was probably just a sign of the times and reflective of the transition in shooting styles.
Best, Dan
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 01:24 pm |
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| One example of the difference in standard skeet gun dimensions is the Winchester Model 21. During certain periods of manufacture, maybe all periods, the straight grip Skeet Grade was 1 1/2X2 as I remember. The pistol grip was 1 1/2X2 1/2. The effective cheek placement will be about the same for both. Drop at heel is a most irrelevant dimension in affecting the look over the rib. Most shooters place the cheek within an inch of the nose of the comb. When a stock is bent vertically, the drop at the point of cheek placement is changed very little compared to the change in heel drop.
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