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Albert Zinn
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 01:38 pm |
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Well Bill, I was hoping to hear from you.
I think what you have described in your M21 example is exactly my question - what was the logic of this difference?
Are you saying that if I had two M21 skeet guns, one of each style and stocked to the dimensions that you state, I would probably shoot them to the same point of impact on the field?
I hope that is so, since it makes selection of another skeet gun a lot easier.
Thanks for your input,
Al Zinn
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Wed Aug 13th, 2008 02:15 pm |
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We tabulated the stock dimensions of Parker guns with respect to time about a year ago in both Parker Pages and DGJ. Almost all top action hammer guns have a dah of 3 1/8 - 3 1/4, and a drop at comb of 1 3/4 plus. The attached photo shows the reason; extend the line of the bottom of the lock back to the wrist; extend the slope of the rear frame tang back to the same point. This is where the wrist must be; it is necessary to raise the nose of the comb by almost an inch to reduce dac to less than 1 1/2 inches. There are some lifter Parkers with raised combs like this, but I have seen only two top action hammer guns with "modern" dimensions. Both of these are from runs of Titanic barreled live bird guns that have the tangs forged at a different angle to produce less drop at comb.
The combination of BTFE and straight hand grip was popular on Parker trap guns beginning around s/n 170,000. This combination was also popular on skeet guns.
I have shot trap from a mounted gun with an SC, a DHE and a VHE, all straight hand /BTFE for several years and have difficulty with only a dead straightaway bird. I shoot skeet and five stand from a low gun with a PG / splinter and do fairly well. I have yet to master a straight grip gun from butt below elbow on the call, but many old timers won live bird tourneys with this combination.
I finished the transplant shown this spring. The gun is a Vulcan (M &F) barreled P hammer. I do as well or better with it than with my "Modern" dimension VH that is bored IC & IC. I am still trying to master my straight grip PH; I have almost 50% bad mounts with it, although I have adjusted the pad, and practiced for hours.
Best, Austin
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 05:19 pm |
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| Albert, in my experince it doesn't make any difference if it's a SG or a PG. I have three Parkers and four Remingtons I shoot all the time. Three of them are SG, and four PG guns. All are within an 1/8" at the comb and a 1/4" at the heel- and I seem to shoot the same with any of them. Paul
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 05:39 pm |
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| Way to go, Paul. How many of us are making our living shooting these guns? What's the big deal about missing a target once in a while? I missed one back in 1986 and am I mad about it. Excuse me for preaching. By the way, I don't object to Austin's comb modification. Some of my favorite Parkers have been modified in one way or another for various reasons. Some of them were quite affordable.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 05:53 pm |
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| Kniow the POI of the particular gun you're shooting and then, from my experience, it is only a matter of mount. My Parkers range from 1 7/8" DAC S/G to almost 3 1/4" DAC P/G and I shoot them equally poorly when I make a poor mount and equally well when I mount the gun correctly. I shoot low gun almost exclusively.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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| I think I just made Dean admit that he isn't making his living hitting birds with his Parkers but he enjoys them just fine even with the occasional miss. That is what I was trying to convey about my Parkers. I very seldom miss, but the Parkers miss on a fairly regular basis, and I don't mind. Like Austin, there are one or two that I would be willing to carve on if it would improve my shooting.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 07:14 pm |
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 ... (swishes toe around in dirt)
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 07:22 pm |
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| Yup, Dean, I know the feeling. We're having way too much fun shooting to worry about the details. Thanks for the reply. OH, Austin, you too.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 07:57 pm |
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| No, not Austin. I've shot with Austin when he used that hammer gun with the Vulcan barrels and the comb modification. He shoots that gun impressively well!
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David Hamilton
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 08:03 pm |
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Dean, all you need to do is add Balistol to your cleaning supply and all those guns with different dimensions will shoot just as intended by the maker.
Like Bill You'll "seldom miss". DavidLast edited on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 09:08 pm by David Hamilton
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Thu Aug 14th, 2008 11:22 pm |
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Paul:
I think you answered your own question: if they are all within 1/8" at the comb and 1/4" at the heel, you should shoot them pretty much the same, don't you think?
Al Zinn
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Albert E. Zinn
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 03:56 pm |
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| Albert, it was more of a statement than a question- that is it doesn't matter if it's a SG or PG. Back to your question, no you probably won't shoot a gun with less drop good unless you shoot it a lot and get used to it. Some guys are good enough they seem to adapt to any gun and shoot it well. I can't do that. I've shot " head-up" with a low mount for so long that guns with modern dimentions make me shoot high. I just bought a really nice 1894 Remington C grade [ I do mean nice- looked perfect] that had a comb at 1 3/4". After trying to bend it three times [ it kept going back to where it started] , I took a rasp and knocked the comb to 2 1/8". Now it shoots where I'm looking. You can look for the stock that fits you, or make em fit. Paul
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 04:12 pm |
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| Dean, guess that's why I alter stocks to fit my style of shooting. Not being a great shot, the last thing I want to worry about is the mount, or should I say getting the gun up to my cheek or lifting my head. When a good friend started shooting SxS's, his had a lot of drop. He said " I like this because I can't lift my head, it's already up". I quit looking for guns with modern dimensions. You just have to slap it up somewhere on your jaw and it's pointing where you're looking [ at least for me] . I can usually shoot in the 38 to 44 range out of 50 in SC's - good but not really good. As Bill said; who cares, I ain't doing this for money. Paul
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 04:42 pm |
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paul harm wrote: You just have to slap it up somewhere on your jaw and it's pointing where you're looking [ at least for me] .
Same here, basically.
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 15th, 2008 05:46 pm |
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Paul:
Thanks for your comments - I believe we're pretty much in the same boat, just at opposite ends of the hull, so to speak. I am pretty used to shooting modern field dimensions, and have a hard time with any of the older guns with lots of drop.
I have owned Parkers & Lefevers stocked as some of the guys described, and if I concentrate real hard on keeping my head up so that I can see down the rib, I can hit some targets with them - but I really don't shoot them well at all.
I don't get to shoot a lot - couple rounds of skeet a week, if I'm lucky. No SC or Trap.
I have used Win Model 12's for years, and on very rare occasions break 24-25, but 20-22 is more usual.
Last year I acquired a Win 21 in 20ga WS-1, WS-2, PG. I didn't shoot it at all well at first, but am getting better - yesterday I broke 21 with it, so I'm happy. It's stocked very close to the Mod 12.
So, I was thinking that my next acquisition would be a matching 12ga Parker or Win 21 Skeet, but with SG, just because I like the way they look. Problem is, they're all stocked like trap guns!
That's what started this whole thing...
Like you, I am not one who can shoot a wide variety of dimensions well, and since I will not take a rasp to a nice Parker or Win skeet gun, I guess I should just look for PG gun.
Or learn to shoot better.
AL Zinn
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Steve Kleist
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Posted: Sat Aug 16th, 2008 12:51 pm |
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Albert,
Just a few thoughts on your straight grip question.
I am not a stock expert, rather a student of other's experience and expertise.
As I understand it, the straight gripped stocks were designed for the double trigger guns. There is some trigger hand movement (and often) head movement when sliding back to the rear trigger. A flatter stock (less angle) should provide a similar (if not the same) sight picture on the second shot. The only drop dimension that really mattters is where you put your head.
I have Parkers of both stock styles. While I like the look and feel of a pistol grip (and beavertail) the double triggers work best with the straight grip...and slide to the same place! With a dropped SG stock, you would slide to a different sight picture.
As many of my expert shooting friends say...."the three most important factors to successful shooting is 1)Gun Fit, 2)Gun Fit, 3)Gun Fit."
"Keep the wood on the wood!
Best Fishes, Steve Kleist
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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| Albert, the Remington had such a high comb that it allowed me to remove some wood and still look proper. Otherwise I never would have done it. I'm kind of with Steve in reguards with it only matters where you put your head. But it's how you get your head and stock to meet the same everytime. If you're used to moving the gun up say 7" from under your arm for a mount and then go to a gun with an 1 1/2" different DAH you're not going to meet your face the same. I have a 1873 Remington lifter that won't allow me to remove wood or bend the stock [ the grain flows out the back top of the wrist] that is a little to high for my style of shooting. If I lower my face just an an inch or so the gun comes up perfect. Problem is, I don't always remember and shoot high. Gun fit and what feels right is a personal thing - to each his own. Paul
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Albert Zinn
BBS Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 18th, 2008 05:57 pm |
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Paul & Steve:
I certainly did not mean to imply that you spoiled a fine gun - I guess it would depend on the gun, condition and rarity. I would not modify a gun the way Austin Hogan did as shown earlier in this thread, but then Austin has seen a lot of Parkers, and untimately, they were meant to shoot, so more power to him!
While I certainly agree that it only matters where you put your head in the end, I would suggest that where you put your head is directly governed by LOP, DAC & DAH.
I just looked at old add from the 1930's for a Win 21 skeet gun. It lists the dimensions as 14" LOP, DAC as 1 1/2", DAH as 2". Straight grip, single trigger. I believe Parker Skeet guns form the same era were stocked the same, as confirmed by some of the other posts in this thread.
Those dimensions are significantly straighter than PG field guns or skeet guns with from the same era.
Steve's point about straight grips and double triggers is obviously valid, but most of these guns, if not all, were single trigger.
These builders obviously knew what they were doing and had a reason for stocking them this way.
I'm just trying to find out why.
Thanks,
Al Zinn
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 11:22 am |
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| I believe one of the primary reasons, after musing the whole thing over for more than a week now, why the DAC and DAH were raised over a relatively short period of time is the result of a matter of physics. The more "in line" the barrel or barrels of a gun are directly to the shoulder, the less perceived recoil will result. Even today a game gun is made with more drop than a dedicated trap or skeet gun. There are still the same differences in shooting style between hunters and competition shooters, e.g., mounting the gun before calling for a target vs. throwing the gun up on a flushed or passing bird. The desired result in a competition gun is less perceived recoil so elevating the comb was the easiest way for a manufacturer to do this back then and even today. Last edited on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 03:15 pm by Dean Romig
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David Hamilton
PGCA Member
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Posted: Mon Aug 25th, 2008 09:13 pm |
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| Thanks Dean, Although I have had some of your explanation in mind, I haven't put it all together so clearly. I shoot both modern and head up guns moderately well. I prefer the old guns for hunting. David
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